Talk:Ichigo Kurosaki/Archive 8
Bankai's Enhanced Strength? Shouldn't Ichigo's "Enhanced Strength" on his Bankai Special Abilities be listed under his general Enhanced Strength? I mean has there really been any mention of his Bankai increasing his strength? We know he gains an incredible speed increase and even Byakuya and Grimmjow had noted that that was the only change. Sure he blocked Yammy's punch, but we don't know if Ichigo could have done that without Bankai. His Enhanced Strength shown during the Hueco Mundo battles were due to his Hollow Mask. His Enhanced Strength shown in his battle with Ginjou was due to his Fullbring enhancements(as noted by Ginjou). The only thing left is his strength after coming out of the Dangai. But that could have easily been the results of his Dangai training. We never knew if his strength was any different in Shikai at the time. So in the end, couldn't we agree that Tensa Zangetsu DOES NOT give Ichigo a strength increase? Khaotic Twist (talk) 05:34, March 24, 2016 (UTC)Khaotic Twist (talk) 05:31, March 24, 2016 (UTC) :Why would you bring up something that isnt even relevant to his current powers. Your whole point is to dispute something under former powers. Also your points are unverified, you move under the assumption that Ichigo has such natural enhanced strength in the way that Sado does which isnt true. There is no proof ichigo possesses the capability to do any of the stuff listed outside of the categorizes they are listed under as he has never been shown to do so while out of Them. Thus there is a example for each under all categories fullbring, hollowfication, bankai. You point out we dont know if he couldnt have done this or that without bankai, the burden is for you to prove that he can, seeing as your making that charge. Your also making points covered in each category. It doesnt translate that "we never knew if his strength was any different in shikai at the time". That doesnt make your point, it makes the point that you cant rightly argue against said enhancement.-- ::So i'm not allowed to talk about former powers? That's...odd. Anyways, the thing is that Ichigo has hardly used his Bankai without also using his Hollow Mask or Fullbring enhancements. And during the times where he's not, he hasn't shown any enhanced strength. The examples given on his page were just post-Fullbring feats, post-Dangai feats, and that one time he blocked Yammy's punch and cut his arm off. Which isn't impossible for him since Base Form Yammy is the weakest of the Esapdas and Ichigo had knocked out 3 Lieutenants with 1 punch each(including Sasakibe and shattering Gegetsuburi) pre-Bankai. What I want to know is how did you came to the conclusion that his Bankai gave him enhanced strength? Unless I'm the only one that doesn't see it.Khaotic Twist (talk) 06:24, March 24, 2016 (UTC) :::All available evidence indicates that Ichigo receives enhancements to all his powers and abilities when he enters bankai; the onus is on you to prove otherwise. Citing what Grimmjow said isn't evidence of anything. Ichigo being able to knock-out three lieutenants is a lot different from cutting right through the hierro of an espada, regardless of how 'weak' they are. Yoruichi, despite being able to easily take down Yammy, still got injured due to his thick hierro. 06:54, March 24, 2016 (UTC) ::::But what evidence are saying that's available? That's what i want to know. Otherwise everything would be assumptions and should be indicated as such. Of course Yoruichi is going to hurt her hands, because she as beating up Yammy with her bare hands. If she was using a weapon, her hands wouldn't be injured. And despite that, Yammy was all bruised and bloodied from all the abuse. Khaotic Twist (talk) 07:31, March 24, 2016 (UTC) ::::The references that are already there. Why is this such a big deal? It's in the former powers and abilities section anyway, so what's the point of changing it even if it were wrong (which it isn't). Also Yoruichi fights bare-handed all the time, so by your logic she should get injured each time she fights. 08:02, March 24, 2016 (UTC) :::::If you didn't think it was such a "big deal", then we wouldn't be going back and forth like this. So what if it's a former power/ability? It's still in his page, therefore it's still matters. And saying that it isn't such a "big deal" to discuss is a petty way of proving your point. Yoruichi was still fighting someone with Hierro, so in this case her hands would hurt from the resistance. Strength and durability is not the same. It's like being able to break a wooden board but you still might hurt your hand afterwards. Anyways, all I wanted was for you to hear me out on my suggestion. If you still disagree, then does nothing more I can say(even though I still don't think i'm wrong). Khaotic Twist (talk) 09:18, March 24, 2016 (UTC) ::::::I think the point made by Kman111 and myself says it all. Your saying that we are using assumptions and therefore that should be indicated. Firstly assumptions arent used here. The fact is every instance shown is shown when ichigo is either in bankai, fullbring, hollowfication. Meaning we can only list what we see him do when he is in the state he is. He has not shown the capability outside of that state we cant say he has the capability out of that state. Secondly it would be an assumption to think he is capable of such a thing outside of the other states mentioned when you dont know if that is possible. Which seems to be your position. Thus I said prove that he can use it outside of bankai. Now you say the examples arent proof of his enhanced strength because he knocked back 3 lieutenants in the SS arc. So that basically proves that he is more powerful then those 3 low powered lieutenants which we already know considering he can hold his own with captains at that point. Also for your argument to work you would have to discredit the fact that Yammy (post release or not) is still in possession of high levels of strength. Now if what you say is true then why not do any of those feats of strength while in shikai...unless he doesnt have that level of strength in shikai which explains all the reasons he isn't in shikai prior to serious battle in series. True enough most characters dont have their bankai work for them in that capacity but then again not everyone is in a constant state of bankai either like ichigo who needs the enhancement that he gets from it.-- :::::::Ichigo stopped Yammy's hand with just his Shikai's blade before using Bankai. There's that. Khaotic Twist (talk) 15:59, March 24, 2016 (UTC) :: I remember Grimmjow remarking that all Ichigo's bankai did was increase his speed during their first battle, but that probably shouldn't be read into too much. Arawn 999 (talk) 06:05, March 24, 2016 (UTC) ::Grimmjaw commenting on something he couldnt really know about seeing its not his bankai or something arrancar understand but more importantly. Its not unheard of that a bankai enhances ones typical capabilities. Yes Hyper-Speed is its capability. It also provides stronger getsuga tensho's amongst general enhancements ichigo doesnt have outside of bankai.-- Grammar Issues The entry for his new Hollow form currently reads thusly: "Melded Hollow Form: After melding the power of both Zangetsu spirits together while reforging his Zanpakuto, he gained the ability to transform into a melded Hollow form. Due to his inexperience and incomplete mastery, he needed to borrow some of Yhwach's power from an attack as a catalyst to make his transformation. Ichigo take an appearance similar to the Merged Hollow Form. Only the left side of his body is Hollowfied. The iris of his left became yellow with black pupil and scelera. A horn similar to the hollow form seen by Inoue grew on the left side of his head. Tatooed like markings appeared on the left side of his face and extends down past his neck. Like the Merged Hollow Form of Zangetsu he once fought inside of himself, he has no mask." There are a number of grammatical errors with it that should be corrected. I'd do it myself, but the page was locked. Arawn 999 (talk) 15:02, June 2, 2016 (UTC) Current Bankai: Tensa Zangetsu (To be determined)? Seeing as how significant of a change Ichigo's Zanpakutō went through, it doesn't make sense to have its current name to remain the same. Are we going under the premise that the Quincy manifestation gave him the true name of his Zanpakutō, seeing as he has only "lied" about his name being Zangetsu? Ichigo still reforged it in the end, so we could see it receive a new name as a result of combining his powers. Gold3263301 (talk) 20:04, June 9, 2016 (UTC) It seems logical to leave it since it's name is still Zangetsu. We'll find out in a week anyways and it's been like that for so long Riptide240 (talk) 20:32, June 9, 2016 (UTC) : On the other hand, Zabimaru lied to Renji about the true name of his bankai. It's possible that the Old Man did the same or something similar, or that it might significantly change as a result of him having access to his full powers. Still, we'll (probably) find out next week. Arawn 999 (talk) 01:29, June 10, 2016 (UTC) Reiatsu Control Is it still at a Novice level? Given what Hikifune said and what's happened during his fight with Yhwach it seems that he has full control over his Reiatsu now. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 11:35, June 13, 2016 (UTC) :Hikfune said he got stronger and his fighting skill doesnt make up for the required years of training and expereince which he has never had. When we talk about control we mean on the lvl of a captain not just a teenager whose powerful as the protagonist.-- Terminology Mistake When talking about Ichigo's "Merged Hollow Form", the article says his pupil turns yellow. It's actually his iris that changes, and what colour it changes to - if any - is unknown unless colour spreads of it are revealed. Arawn 999 (talk) 09:17, June 16, 2016 (UTC) Zanpakuto a Former Ability? Given the events in today's chapter, I moved Ichigo's Quincy and Hollow powers to the Former Powers and Abilities section. I'm wondering if we should put his new Zanpakuto in the section as well, as it was broken in Bankai, so Ichigo effectively can no longer use it (well, until it gets fixed somehow) Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 14:34, June 30, 2016 (UTC) : We should probably wait and see exactly what's happened to him and if he even has any power left, since my understanding was that his Hollow power was merged with his Soul Reaper power. Arawn 999 (talk) 15:23, June 30, 2016 (UTC) After this part However, they are all interrupted when Ichigo is stabbed through the shoulder by Shūkurō Tsukishima, who reveals that he has altered the past so that Tensa Zangetsu can be fixed. With this done wouldn't he have his powers back as well sence his sword is an extention of his powers?Malkiv (talk) 06:26, July 16, 2016 (UTC) : We'll have to wait and see. He never remarked on feeling his Quincy or Hollow powers returning, but the fact that his Zanpakuto is still partially white implies that his Hollow powers aren't as gone as he thinks they are. Maybe we'll get to see what Zangetsu looks like without being overshadowed by White, but who knows. Arawn 999 (talk) 07:57, July 16, 2016 (UTC) Trivia Section It doesnt make a great deal of sense, if that were the case ichigo would have lost his zanpakuto (Hadrimon (talk) 13:18, August 18, 2016 (UTC)) : During their final battle, Yhwach was able to remove Ichigo's Hollow powers because he had inherited them from his mother. How he was able to do so when White's soul had fused with Ichigo's Soul Reaper powers, what the repercussions of that are for Ichigo, and what Zangetsu's spirit form looks like are unknown, since it's not explained beyond that. Arawn 999 (talk) 14:24, August 18, 2016 (UTC) :: What Yhwach took away was Ichigo's strength. Ichigo's soul is a complete mix of Shinigami and Hollow, and there's absolutely no changing that. Also, we've observed survivors of Yhwach's draining still retaining their Quincy power, signifying that his soul is still in their blood.--KeeferTEarl (talk) 22:38, November 24, 2016 (UTC) ::: Given the utter lack of information what with the rushed ending and cancellation, all we can do is take the information presented in the manga at face-value. Ichigo outright states his Quincy and Hollow powers are gone after Yhwach defeats him, and there's no indication given as to how Yhwach was able to extract White's soul given it was melded with Ichigo's Zanpakuto Spirit, or that Ichigo still possesses his Quincy and Hollow powers or that Tsukishima's retcon powers restored them. Furthermore, his Hollowfication and the white casing of his bankai - representing his Hollow powers - crumble, indicating he no longer has them. Arawn 999 (talk) 00:44, November 25, 2016 (UTC) ::: What about the information confirming "removal of strength, not nature" that I just brought up was evidenced by the surviving Sternritter? Factoring this information, the more likely scenario was that Ichigo was rendered unable to feel his own powers once the energy fueling those powers was stolen away. After all, without Ichigo's own energy, Tensa Zangetsu is just a hunk of metal. The white casing crumbled because Yhwach destroyed it. It was perfectly fine after being repaired by Tsukishima and Orihime. Even if he lost his Hollowfication, either through removal of that release or just insufficient energy, Zangetsu itself was still around. One mistake being made here is treating Ichigo's Shinigami and Hollow powers as two entirely separate things. They never have been. The soul of his sword and of his mask have always been one and the same. So, the fact that Zangetsu even remains at all is proof that White still remains, because White IS Zangetsu. What's more, the form Zangetsu takes was given shape by his Quincy side to begin with; a blade of self-compressed reiatsu.--KeeferTEarl (talk) 03:49, November 25, 2016 (UTC) The basis of your argument is based on what happened to others not Ichigo or in his situation. The difference between power absorption and Aushwahlen. The Sternritter were victims of Aushwahlen and thus either died instantly or would die slowly due to the Still Silver now in their bodies. Its not simply saying they cant feel their power it was mostly taken from them. The only power the 3 Sternritter who survived were able to use afterwards were some of their basic powers and their unique schifts, which was innately theirs. What is explained about Ichigo's zanpakuto situation is that his hollow powers and the Quincy powers are both gone, he states that himself. Tsukshima's ability along with Orihime's did not restore powers what Tsukishima did was "insert" a past where it wasnt broken and Orihime used her powers to restore it from that. The same original version of zangetsu not really affected by Quincy or hollow powers. Simply because a broken bankai cannot be fixed unless by the skill of Oetsu Nimaiya this was the only possibility. Prior to this Orihime's powers didnt work because they arent strong enough and she can only reject what happened previously and presently but not what happened in the future (As the way Yhwachs powers work). The returned him a zanpakuto the only power not taken from ichigo was that of his shinigami self. It took years and many experiences to learn and control his hollow powers and recognize he had any Quincy power. Both of which was passed on via his mother. Losing both would still leave his shinigami powers as having a zanpakuto isnt a power of a hollow or a Quincy. The mistake your making is assuming that whats happened with ichigo either gaining hollow / quincy / shinigami powers is natural or that even having powers taken was natural. Ichigo is a unique circumstance in Bleach but what we do know is there was nothing seamless or natural about his powers as by their very nature they were at odds with each other because of their opposing natures. He has always predominately been Shinigami, his hollow powers were secondary and under utilized at best and his Quincy powers were used once or twice in the form of blut. There is nothing that would say he only lost connection or otherwise. What we do have is that those facets of his power are gone. Also your point that the powers are one in the same isnt actually correct they come from different sources residing in the same person being utilized together. Also white doesnt exist as an entity anymore the day it merged with Masaki, so no what is not zangetsu. Your confusing a hollow creature with a inner hollow. Also the blade f compresses reiatsu was the first blade ichigo used not zangetsu. His quincy side took control and repressed his shinigami powers but the zanpakuto was from the shinigami side as once again they are separate powers and ichigo didnt even know the old man was quincy related until much later and even then it was seperate from the hollow and shinigami powers for years all it had was control. Yhwach effectively took what was making ichigo unique and powerful breaking the bankai that was created by that fusion that ichigo had just recently made. There is just no evidence supporting your claim, mostly cause your way of viewing the situation is in error. Ichigo is solely a Shinigami until such time as more information becomes available to say otherwise which doesnt seem likely given how the series ended.-- : "Also white doesnt exist as an entity anymore the day it merged with Masaki, so no what is not zangetsu. Your confusing a hollow creature with a inner hollow." - Except Nimaya outright states that Ichigo's Inner Hollow is the result of White's soul transferring from Masaki to Ichigo (a la how the Fullbringers got their powers) and fusing with his Zanpakuto Spirit, and Isshin and Nimaya both treat White and Hollow Zangetsu as one-and-the-same. Arawn 999 (talk) 18:55, November 25, 2016 (UTC) :Totally disregarding my point from the onset. White is not a individual entity making its own decision any longer. Nobody disputes the fact that it was White that caused the hollowfication of masaki which ultimately got passed on to Ichigo. What I am saying as at that point White ceased to be anything more then a catalyst for hollowfication. We all are aware of how Ichigo got into the situation. To say they are one in the same and are treated as such as erroneous. The hollow portion of ichigo's powers is not a separate being either isshin or Nimaya interacted with its a part of ichigo's soul they were stating a point of making a origin story for ichigo's hollow powers and zanpakuto. Regardless that all ceased to be the case as soon as the hollow powers were gone. -- Zangetsu So I held off on changing Zangetsu back to its old state when 684 came out, but since we have had no information since then, it appears Ichigo is back to his former Zanpakuto state. So can the change be made? Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 14:07, August 19, 2016 (UTC) :The problem as you should already be aware is that we dont know what the deal is here given the lack of information available. Having said that given how complicated his zanpakuto situation already is we have to be careful on how we address this. The original zangetsu is the best bet but how to do so without moving any of the changes its undergone over the years. How we keep that info and images were it is without the base content and the understanding that we cant really move bankai information cause we just dont know whats the deal with that.-- Epilogue e="colorsc:#66AAED;">T H E]] π 05:25, September 14, 2016 (UTC)